"Restorative justice changed my memory" Guest: Ailbhe Griffith

In this episode, my guest is Ailbhe Griffith from Ireland, who is an advocate for restorative justice. Welcome back to another program of We Can Find A Way, a podcast about conflict resolution. My name is Idil Elveris. This is a bilingual podcast, but it has been a while since I did not do a program in English and I do apologize from the audience for the long disruption. It is sometimes hard to strike a balance between different audiences and languages, and this has been the case for me lately. So in this episode of We Can Find a Way, my guest is Ailbhe Griffith who will be talking about restorative justice and its application in a sexual violence setting. Following her own experience of a restorative meeting with the man who offended her against her in 2014, Ailbhe has become an advocate for restorative justice in cases of serious violence, including sexual violence, as well as an ambassador for Restorative Justice International RJI. She has spoken publicly about her experience, traveling domestically and internationally to various restorative justice conferences and criminal justice events. Her goal is to promote restorative justice as an additional mechanism of justice for victims of violence. Her drive to promote it culminated in her participation in a film depicting her real life meeting, entitled “The Meeting”, directed by Alan Gilsenan. The film became an advocacy tool and she has engaged in multiple TV, radio and other media interviews to spread the word. And this is also how I got to see Ailbhe for the first time. I was very fortunate that she agreed to talk to me when I wrote to her. And we can now proceed to the interview that took place on, 22nd January, 2020.

Thanks for agreeing to talk to me today.

-Thank you. Happy to be here.

Please tell us, what did you feel you needed after your experience?

-After my experience in general of being assaulted?

Yes.

-Through the criminal justice system and after that?

I think you should pick wherever you want to start and end.

-Well, I suppose immediately the morning that I was assaulted by a stranger and after coming home from my job in the night time, I was violently, sexually assaulted by him. I immediately wanted to go to the police in Ireland. So, in fact, I never even made it home, not even to my door. I went straight to the police station and I reported the crime. From there, the criminal justice process kicked off for me. I kind of made a statement. I kind of had all these kind of tests done in a hospital. The whole process was kicked off. I was lucky in that the person that assaulted me was captured by some passers by who had rescued me. They kind of held him down and then they called the police themselves. So the situation was positive in that he had been apprehended.

It took about a year, more or less a year, between that point and the point that he was in court and was being sentenced for the crime. He pleaded guilty, so there was no trial per se. The whole criminal justice process, I was quite removed from it, apart from at the point when he was being sentenced for the crime. And I got to read a victim impact statement, which is possible in Irish courts, different jurisdictions as well. I recall feeling like I very much wanted to read my victim impact statement in court because I wanted to tell him directly how it had impacted me. I wanted almost to speak to him when I was writing it out. I didn't actually directed at him, but I knew he was going to be there. The problem was he was in the far corner of the courtroom with his eyes planted on the ground and he didn't look up at me once. There was a big disconnect between what I was saying and what I knew was actually being heard or processed by him. While I felt it was cathartic, I still felt something was missing.

The whole criminal justice process for me.. I felt very disconnected from what was taking place. I felt like I was kind of on the periphery of it, almost. What had happened was somebody had broken the law and that the whole process was taking place where he was going to be punished for breaking that law. But it wasn't really about the harm that it has caused me, the turmoil that had happened in my life. At the time, I had kind of very severe post traumatic stress. My whole internal life had changed. The way I looked at people on the street had changed, everything had changed for me. It had a huge, profound impact on my life and I just felt that was not being acknowledged by the criminal justice process. It was a good outcome from that in that he was sentenced to nine years in Ireland, which is quite good for our standards. So I was happy with that and I felt like everybody had just kind of washed their hands at that point and kind of said, “okay, well, justice has happened, it’s good, get on with your life now”. All I can say is you know, I didn't feel like I could get on with my life, really. There was something huge missing. I couldn't put my finger on it, I didn't know what it was, but I just knew there was something missing.

But I did try to move on, you know. I did all the things that people do, therapy, anything, yoga I could think of to help. Ultimately I couldn't really move on. Years past, in fact, what kept coming back to me in my thought was this feeling that I wanted to say something to him. I didn't even know necessarily what it was that I wanted to say, but I just wanted to face him and I used to actually visualize that in my head quite frequently. I didn't always say that to people that were around me, but occasionally when I did, they would kind of look at me like as if I was crazy. “Why, why would you want to? I think that would be crazy. It would be very dangerous”. Couldn't speak to him. I was lucky in that maybe about seven years after everything, I was speaking to my sister about it and saying “I'd like to understand why he did it”. And she said to me, “well, now that you're talking about it like that, Ailbhe, what it sounds a lot like to me is something called restorative justice”. And it was the first time I'd really heard of restorative justice. And it was at that point that I kind of mesh up with Dr. Marie Keenan, who is like the restorative justice expert here in Ireland, and I met with her. I suddenly began to realize that what I was feeling I needed was not crazy at all. This was a thing. This was a process that people undertake to find closure, exactly the thing that I've been looking for. So she described it and all the studies she'd be involved with, all the processes that she facilitated herself. I was amazed. At the time, there was really no clear path for me to get this. I was aware that the man in my case was released from prison at that stage, and therefore we contacted probation service in Ireland, a victim section that you can liaise with. I suppose from there, a kind of a restorative process kicked off for me. Obviously, initially, they had to ask the man, was he prepared to engage in a restorative process with me. And even getting to that stage took quite some months, because the Probation Service were concerned that he wouldn't be ready, in their view, for this. His very initial response was “yes”, actually, almost immediately. About a week later, he changed his mind,  his family being worried that he was being kind of punished again, so to speak, that this wouldn't be good for him, that somehow it would expose him again. After a number of weeks, again, he kind of picked back up on it and kind of said that he would engage. So it was very much coming from him in the end that he was prepared to engage, which was a great thing for me. So once he had agreed, the process could begin properly for me. So I met with the facilitators and obviously they met with me first, and they kind of said: “Right, Ailbhe, what is it that you're looking for? Why do you want to meet with him?” A huge part of it for me was just being present in the same room with him. Just being physically present, being able to look straight into his face, that was a huge thing for me.

Not being afraid, I guess.

-Exactly. I needed to confront him to diminish my fear. After I was assaulted, I always had this sense that he was a monster. That for me was kind of ever present throughout all the years that you know subsequent to him being imprisoned. But I actually logically knew he wasn't a monster. I knew in my head, this man is not a monster, he's just a man. But I couldn't connect the two. And I felt like being in the room with him would make him more human to me. I also wanted to explain what it felt like to be me during his assault of me. I wanted to explain the aftermath of what my life had been like since. And I also had a number of questions as well. Firstly, why he did it and why he did it to me. And I also wanted to know how he intended to kill me because it seemed like it was going in that direction. And I think that's a common thing for a lot of victims of crime, having questions. You know what? And for me, this experience has had such a profound effect on me and on my life. I felt like I needed to make sense of it. How can you make sense of something that has no sense? But at the same time, it wasn't about making logical sense. It was trying to understand what was going through his mind that made him do what he did. Even if that was nonsense, I still wanted to know what it was that I felt would complete this kind of picture for me. I felt my whole vision had been very fragmented and if I could see a clear picture of, this has happened for this reason, I felt like I could get closure. Some people wouldn't need that, but I needed that. Restorative justice was the only way that I was going to get that. So that was what I was looking for.

What you needed started with disconnect and hurt, trauma but also fear. And then when you found out about restorative justice, you could get answers to all the questions that have developed over time because the justice system couldn't really deliver them to you, despite the fact that you could prepare a victim impact statement. And I think you read that in the movie.

-Yes, I did. I had all my bullet points written on a piece of paper. I was very prepared.

So how did the mediation process help you then?

-I would say it helped me tremendously. It was a life changing experience for me. It was extremely profound, much more than I could ever have imagined, actually. To kind of summarize, I suppose, what it did for me, it did exactly what I was looking for. It empowered me. When I walked into the room, I remember very clearly looking at him and seeing a man who had been in my mind for many, many years as this monster. And there he was, just sitting on a chair in normal clothes, looking like a normal person. Can't just describe it, really. It was very, very profound. But I just began to realize, no, he's just a man. He's just a person. I could walk up by him on the street and I wouldn't know if I hadn't had that experience, I wouldn't know any different. He kind of looked at me and almost smiled. He wasn't sure how to respond, really.

So I sat down, and as the meeting evolved, as I began to say my piece, and eventually he began to kind of respond, to reciprocation in a much more human way. He really transformed into like having a conversation with another person like you would with anybody. And that was what was so profound about it because he changed from this monster who I feared, who I felt to be disempowered by, to just another person who I wasn't afraid of. In fact, I almost felt some empathy for because that shift was so immense. I suppose that's really what helped me to remove all fear. That was incredibly empowering. I also got answers to the questions that I asked that was important for me. Plus, as I just mentioned a few months ago, they weren't necessarily well, “that makes perfect sense” kind of answers. I could see what had happened that had motivated him to do what he did. And I felt, right, well, that's it. I don't have any more questions. And it just helped me get that deep sense of closure from that. There were no more question marks, which I often think people who suffer crimes may have. So I walked out of that room feeling elated. I couldn't stop smiling for several days after this heavy weight that had been on my shoulders for many, many years seemed to have lifted. I really felt like I could do anything. It was climax for me in my life in that way. That did continue. And people have often asked me, has that kind of positive influence continued for you in your life. And I would say yes. And I explain it this way: Anybody that has experienced violence of that type or any crime really can often get triggered by certain things. You may hear a negative story in the media of somebody that was attacked or murdered. It often will bring you back to your own experience. Before my restorative meeting, that would bring me back to a really negative place where I felt disempowered. I felt like a victim. I felt sad and angry and everything that you would feel. But afterwards, if I go back to that night, I also go back to this restorative meeting. That was so positive, that was so empowering. It's changed the memory for me. It's changed my reaction to it at least. And I think that's what restorative justice has. That's the power it has, because it can change your experience of a negative thing into something positive. That's why it's continued, because I don't go back to a place of victimhood. I go back to a place of empowerment.

How did he agree to meet you? Because I remember from the movie he wasn't admitting to any culpability, but he still agreed to meet you.

-I never have a clear understanding necessarily of like he didn't specifically say “I agreed to meet because of this”. But my sense of it, from everything that had happened, was that whilst he didn't agree to apologize to me, I think he didn't want to be fake about it. He agreed to participate, to show up as a better person. To kind of highlight that he wasn't just this person that did a bad thing. I do think he wanted to, at some level, feel better about what had happened. I will always say that I felt that he was being the best version of himself. Like he showed up being the best version that he could be of himself. And I know he has other sides to him. That's what he wanted to show on that day and leave a human side to him I would say. I know that he got benefited from it as well, because towards the end of the movie, you kind of get to see he went home and he thought hard my heart about what had happened. And he made a phone call to say that he was sorry about what had happened and you've been upset all weekend, but that did happen, you know?

And I think it was like one of the best things in the movie. Sorry I interrupted you. But you were like…I couldn't believe it. It was so nice.

-Yeah. Because people would have said he's not the perfect candidate to go forward for restorative justice because he wasn't that remorseful. I think it was restorative justice that made him realize that I was a human being and he had hurt a human. And he felt that

And the objectives he used for you actually, they were pretty impressive.

-Yeah. It helped him. And I don't think he necessarily went in there thinking it would. It has changed something for him at some level. Yeah.

The discussion that he took somebody for security home, thatt was such a human discussion between you. And I think that's one of the important things as well, because no one is perfect. We are all human. And the process gives us these moments our imperfections, perfections, good things, bad things. And those are coming out. That's how people feel. They are better than themselves. They're learning something.

-Yeah. I think we're all on a spectrum, aren't we, of good or bad. And some people are more towards one side than the other. But there can be some redemption there. And I think even the point that you just mentioned there when he said he walked a woman home for her own security. And I laughed and could not help but laugh because it was so darkly comical to me that he would do that. He was trying to say that story, I'm not all bad. Like, I can be the other thing. I can be the one that protects. It was amazing. It really was. I could never have imagined him doing that. Very profound.

So what were your expectations about the process I mean?

-I mean, they weren't that high, I suppose. I knew that I kind of intently needed this. Anything would have been improvement from where I was. I felt my healing or whatever had been plateaued. So I was just going in there like anything that I can get from this, I will take. I was even prepared for him to be aggressive in there. I was prepared for anything like that because I've been prepared well during the preparation meetings.

How?

-I engaged in about five or six preparation meetings and before actually went into the room, which is important, they kind of set the scene for me, so to speak. You can kind of expect this when you go in. I've been informed that he wasn't very remorseful, that he was somebody that would blurt out something offensive to me very easily. They didn't know for sure whether he would or wouldn't be aggressive, essentially. So I went in there with my eyes wide open. So I would take anything that I got from it, even if I got to just say my piece and that be it. Even just being in its physical presence was a big thing for me. So I'd say my expectations weren't that high, but I was extremely pleasantly surprised by it.

How do you think women can support each other in these type of situations?

-I was thinking about that which has already happened, to a degree. Like the first part is just about openness and talking about it to each other, making ourselves live in a culture where it's allowed to talk about what had happened to you and your experiences of being a victim from all kinds of levels. So from extreme sexual violence to harassment on the street or whatever. Having that kind of culture of openness. And that has happened with the meeting maybe in Turkey, obviously before as well. The concept of victim blaming hopefully will be eliminated by that. That comes with the culture of secrecy in a way. And because people don't want to a.) feel like it could happen to them and b.) they don't want to live in a society where this is really an issue, they want to pretend that it's not. So it's easier to blame people being a victim than it is to recognize we have an issue within our society of gender based violence.

The other thing is talking about different ways of healing and that's what I'm doing, I feel, by talking about restorative justice because I don't think violence and gender based violence is gonna go away overnight. We have a lot of self searching, a lot of cultural shifts, a lot of societal shift level of our society to bring about a culture where that doesn't take place. So in the meantime, I do think that we need to find ways for people to really heal. That's why I talk about restorative justice because I know it's worked for me and I know I'm not the only one it's worked for. But we don't talk about it enough. There's a lot of kind of misperception around it. I think it's important for us to talk to each other about ways that we can find that level appealing.

And how did the film affect you being yourself?

-I've decided to be part of the film and actually be in the film to make it as authentic as I feel I could make it. Restorative justice is not about drama, it's not about entertainment either. It's about authenticity between human beings. The more authentic it can be, the more powerful it can be. And that's why for me, going in there and trying to be as close as possible as it was to how I was in the room would hopefully allow for anybody that's watching it to really understand how when you're in that room that it can be so powerful. Because it is a very much a minute by minute depiction. It's not like I said, it's not dramatic. Well, it is dramatic, but it's not dramatic in a classical sense. But you can see somebody walk into that room, kind of a nervous, kind of apprehensive, victim. When I walk out of the room, you see somebody that's empowered, that has peace and some closure. And that's what I was hoping to show and illustrated by the film. And that's why I made it so that other people could see that and think, well, that's what I want. That's actually what I need.

Thank you very much. Is there anything you would like to add?

Speaker A: Thank you for having me on your podcast. I'm really honored to be on it. I'm so glad you're covering the topic because I think it's just not talked about enough, especially in the context of sexual violence. Any way that people can connect with it and begin to understand it, I think it's really important. So thank you for that.

Thank you. In today’s program my guest was Ailbhe Griffith. She and I discussed what she needed after her experience to really get on with her life. How the mediation process helped her by empowering her and tackling her fear by talking to a human rather than a monster. All the things she said just makes one to think why the criminal justice system fails people in country after country and what actually is needed to support people. Women do watch the meeting. It is quite an experience seeing her and you'll form your opinion accordingly. So I hope you enjoyed the program. I will upload a picture of Ailbhe in the Instagram account of We can find a way. I will share some excerpts from the program in Instagram stories too. Lastly, I would like to thank musician Imre Hadi and artist Zeren Göktan who allowed me to use their artistic materials. Thank you and see you in the next program.