No more fighting employee conflicts Guest: Donna Douglas Williams

IE: Welcome back to another program of ‘We Can Find a Way’, a podcast about conflict resolution. My name is Idil Elveris. In this podcast, I strive to cover conflict in all areas of life and it's resolution through alternative means. I'm one of the first mediators of Turkey. I have taught mediation for a long time, did some victim, offender, labor and community mediation cases, and I started this podcast almost four years ago. In this episode, I'm talking to Donna Douglas Williams, who is the head of Ombuds at Pinterest, recently launched as one of the first Ombuds programs in the technology sector. I covered ombuds programs or workplace in this podcast before, as I think conflict at workplace is the future. Nevertheless, I never covered an ombuds program in a tech company before. And just to reiterate, Ombuds is a confidential, impartial, informal resource that provides support to the workforce.

Donna has over twenty years of experience as an attorney, mediator, facilitator, trainer, and organizational ombudsperson in various institutions. She worked in universities at the University of Texas MD Anderson Cancer Center, she served as Ombudsperson at University of California Health and Georgia State University, and she worked for the Green Climate Fund, which is an organization that assists developing countries in adaptation and mitigation practices to counter climate change. Donna also held the position of Ombudsperson for the World Health Organization. Her experience includes consultant Ombudsperson for the UN funds and programs serving various UN agencies. Donna holds a bachelor's degree in accounting from Purdy University and a law degree from the University of California Davis King Hall School of Law. So, without further ado, we now go to the interview that we held on 28^th November 2022. Thanks for agreeing to talk to me Donna.

DDW: Absolutely, it's my pleasure. Thank you for inviting me.

IE: As far as I know, Pinterest is the first technology company that established an Ombuds office.   Why?

DDW: The first thing I will say is that technically we're not the first.

IE: Twitter?

DDW: Twitter started an Ombuds program nearly a year before Pinterest did. And to your question about the why, a couple of years ago, there were some allegations of bias at Pinterest. These were somewhere around treatment, somewhere around pay disparity. Some had to do with the workplace culture generally. And this is very public so I'm not sharing information that has not been made public. And so Pinterest did an investigation. They asked for a law firm to come in and do an investigation about what was happening more broadly; what employee experiences had been; what they could look toward as recommendations for addressing some of these allegations that had come forward to make some positive changes in the culture. So there were a lot of recommendations. One of those recommendations was to set up an Ombuds program. And I think that is not unlike other corporate programs that have come into existence after allegations of bias. That was how the Coca Cola Company’s program came into existence. So you know, that's our origin story. But I think one of the things that I felt when I got to Pinterest is that it wasn't a “check the box” kind of a program. I felt like the senior leadership was very committed because they saw how an Ombuds program could be beneficial generally. And they've all been very receptive, very cooperative, and I think it's been well received throughout the company. We've had a lot of employees approach us to talk to us about their experiences. And I think in terms of the collaboration across the company, it's been really positive.

IE: So you're basically saying it was, rather than a customer driven system, it was an internally driven system. Employee satisfaction at workplace that has triggered all of this, if I understand that correctly.

DDW: Yes our Ombuds program works with employees and contractors. So we don't work with Pinners. We don't work with customers who use the platform. I wouldn't say there were a lot of allegations, but there were some allegations by some former employees that became very public.

IE: It feels like this is the new development, like it used to be companies cared about client complaints rather than employee complaints. Maybe I'm mistaken by saying that, but what do you think triggered these kind of programs? What changed?

DDW: It's hard for me to sort of speak really generally about what happens in an entire sector or what happens across a whole range of companies. Just my sense. I've been at Pinterest now about a year. I think one of the things that was at play here is that Pinterest was known as sort of the quote, unquote nice guy on the internet. So there had been some really deliberate efforts around building a positive culture at Pinterest. And I'll say something else that is very public, so it's not anything that's a secret. There was some sentiment that that nice guy culture was sort of keeping down dissent and that you need really robust debate. You need people that are not agreeing around everything and they need the safety to be able to talk about diverse opinions. And so I think that was one of the things that was different at Pinterest. That the culture that you heard about at some other tech companies, it was different at Pinterest and that's because they were being very deliberate about who they hired. They were being very deliberate about adherence to the values. That's one part of it. I think there's been a shift in how tech companies respond to certain allegations. So I think before there was, particularly with respect to employees bringing things forward, the response was to fight. So there were some cases that were pretty well known in the media, in tech companies where particularly women were coming forward about gender bias.

IE: Yeah the bro culture kind of thing.

DDW: Exactly, the bro culture allegations. And I think the tendency was to really fight, fight hard. One of the more well known cases, plaintiff who came forward lost that case. But I think there were people that were sharing similar experiences publicly that they had in tech companies. And I think that there was a shift because there was an acknowledgement that something needed to change. There were startup companies that became successful very quickly and there wasn't this deliberate intentional attention paid to the culture that had been created. So I think there was a shift a few years ago about the appropriate ways in which to respond and the fact that there did need to be an acknowledgement that some changes needed to be made. Whether or not that means that there's going to be an ombuds program in every tech company, I don't know. They probably need one. It's been a positive shift. I think all companies experience allegations of around culture, around bias, around diversity and inclusion and belonging. And so I think the tell is around the response because all of those allegations may not be pervasive across a company, but you do have to deal with them, with care. You have to understand what this person or these persons experiences have been, what possibly could have prevented it. Because sometimes you have people come forward and they're relatively isolated incidents. Other times they're really pervasive across a company culture. And I think you have to have a way to really understand and sort of filter out what are we hearing, what do we need to do about it? What mechanisms can we put in place that will be really effective in doing that?

IE: What are the issues that you see as an ombudsperson? Any specific issues to the sector or just generally working in a company?

DDW: Organizational ombuds, we keep our data in nine data categories of big buckets of issues and all of those nine categories have a lot of sub issues so that we can report out. We can sort of analyze our data, tell our own organizations what we're hearing, but we can also compare to other organizational ombuds programs. And what I found in the tech sector is that my numbers are running pretty similarly as they did when I was in other sectors. So this is my first role in tech. My experience is in higher education, academic health centers and IGOs so I've done a lot of work with the UN. I'm finding the same kinds of issues. So a lot around evaluative relationships. So people complaining about the relationship with their manager or a manager seeking some assistance around how to manage a relationship with a person who reports to them. Team dynamics, communication, peer and colleague relationships, respect and treatment. Those kinds of things that are happening in those professional relationships that sometimes will start with a conversation and people will say, that conversation was tense, I didn't understand it. And then I got this evaluation about my performance which seemed like it was not balanced and it wasn't really constructive. So sometimes it's not just one event, it's things that are building over time in professional relationships. And those are the things that I've heard in my career as Ombudsperson over several years. And those continue to be the kinds of things that I hear since I've been in tech.

IE: How do you think this policy of corporations or institutions developing their own internal mechanisms of dispute resolution will develop? Because we are seeing this increasingly, it's almost like people are running away from outside systems, courts, et cetera, and trying to handle matters like more discreetly, faster and in a different manner. Can you tell us a little bit about that? 

DDW: My prediction, and I try not to make a lot of predictions, but I think that this trend is going to continue. I think that companies again have to really be intentional about their culture building work. You have to have really robust dispute resolution and issue resolution mechanisms that include informal as well as formal options. So for years I think companies were very careful to make sure that they had formal resolution options. But those really immediately feel adversarial to people. It takes a lot of time, it takes a lot of energy. Investigations can be very narrow and not address all the issues in a situation. And so I think people need a place to share stories about their experiences instead of just zeroing in on one thing like “I've been harassed” or “I've been discriminated against”. I think they need a forum to be able to talk about first their experience and then talk about how they might be able to resolve these things themselves, independent of any intervention or investigation. And I think that's one of the things that Ombudspersons can do. They can help people sort out the issues, what their priorities are, what the most important things are for them, what their interests are, sort of work through those and pull them apart. And they can say, this is going to be my plan, I'm going to work on this. I'd like for you to help me gather information on this. I really need help when I'm having these kinds of conversations so they go well, I'm not comfortable being assertive because I don't know the language to use. So those are the kinds of things that Ombuds can do really effectively behind the scenes. And if people don't give us permission to intervene, or they don't want us to intervene actively, they can start doing some of those things themselves and feel empowered to sort of engage in the situation in ways that they have not before. Some of the things we do when we do intervene, like shuttle diplomacy or facilitating conversations or raising issues where we're not sharing identities, we can say we've been seeing this trend in the company and that helps to shift things. It helps to sort of not just for the responses and resolutions in individual situations, but it can help the company see what is happening across the organization. And when people know that their identities aren't going to be shared, they're more willing to come forward and talk about those things and they can use us to raise the issues to managers and leaders in the organization. So I think that can be a very powerful mechanism. So that's why I say I think the trend will continue.

Ombuds have to do their part in not only doing good work, but continuing to show value to the organization. So I think it's really important how we keep data, how we analyze it, how we report it. And I think we have to be, I call it a full service ombuds program, so we can't just wait for people to come and bring us issues. Although I think that's the core of our work. But I think we have to do proactive things like training and education and skill development so that people are building the competencies they need to have those professional related relationships that are rooted in respect and dignity. Because sometimes things happen because maybe a manager is not prepared. This is their first managerial role and they haven't had the training that they need to be an effective manager. Or even leaders have seen this across many sectors. You have people put in leadership positions, they're good at their technical role but they don't know how to manage conflict well, or the way that they give feedback is not effective. They don't realize what their role should be as a coach. They're not when things are coming to them, instead of being proactive about addressing things that are happening across their particular organization that they lead, they sort of repress it or they step away from it and they're not engaging in those things. So those conflict competencies are really important and those leadership competencies are important. And so companies have to sort of grab the range and say, we're going to say this is how we want our leaders to be developed. These are the skills that we're going to require that our managers have. And I think part of the Ombuds role is to be involved in that or make recommendations around that and help people with those skills. So I think that's when I say full service, I think we have to be involved in collaborations across the company. And not just I will talk to people who contact me. We have to do outreach, continuous outreach, so people understand our role. And I think we have to always be developing ourselves professionally so that there are different things that we can offer the organizations that we serve.

IE: It looks like this will be mostly initiated or more popular in bigger corporations that have this kind of wide personnel issues rather than a middle sized or a small company. Maybe I'm mistaken to say that, but can you elaborate more? Because for all of these, like, outreach activities, you need personnel, you need people, and in smaller places it's probably not going to be the case. 

DDW: I mean, I think there's a role for an Ombuds in different sized companies. It doesn't have to be really large companies. But I completely agree with you that in order to be effective, you have to have resources and you have to have staff. I did ombuds work for the Green Climate Fund. It was really small and it was growing. I think when I started there, there were about maybe 250 employees at GCF and it grew to a little bit bigger for the time that I was in that role as a consultant. And I realized in a smaller company it can be more valuable to have an Ombuds because they don't have the other mechanisms. So they didn't have an employee assistance program, or staff counselor, or staff psychologist. And not that I'm a psychologist or a therapist, but when people are experiencing a lot of stress and feel like they need support, they're more likely to come to someone who is impartial and confidential. To sort of talk about how they can be connected with those resources. So when there are fewer resources in an organization, smaller organization, that can be even more valuable if you've got a mechanism or function like an Ombuds function. So I think there's a place for an Ombuds in all companies. I think part of it is that people just are not as familiar with this function. They'd don't understand the role because people are focused on human resources that function and what they do. That's the other thing we have to do as a profession. We have to educate people about how we work and how we can complement existing mechanisms like human resources function.

IE: Yes, but human resources is mostly identified with the employer and most employees feel a little bit under threat, whereas Ombuds is almost like this confidential support kind of thing. But it's not. So it's very important to mark basically who's doing what and whether they can complement each other.

DDW: Yeah but I think that relationship has to be built, it has to be developed. There have been some places I have worked where I felt like human resources was somehow intimidated. The ombuds didn't quite understand because they would say, oh well, everything you say, you do, that's what we do. But as you say, people's perceptions about HR sometimes are that they are there to protect the employer. I think a lot of HR professionals would not completely agree with that. I think they would say, but we're also here for employees. And so one of the things that Ombuds can do is give HR feedback about why those perceptions are being developed in the company. What kind of experience led to a person saying I don't really trust HR and how we can work together, how they can refer cases to us, how we can use them as the resource. And I think that goes back to understanding about the ombuds role and how we can work together, how we can complement HR, how we can complement Compliance and other kinds of formal mechanisms.

IE: So how did you end up with this position?

DDW: I was trained as a lawyer, so...

IE: Aren’t we all?

DDW: That was how I sort of started my professional career. And I did some in-house counsel work early in my career. And what I found myself feeling like is that I wasn't able to make the difference that I wanted to make earlier in situations. I don't know that I had articulated this in this way as a young professional, but I felt like I was protecting the company even though there was some bad behavior. And I kept thinking we should be addressing this behavior, this person should have some accountability. I left that role. I started teaching business law and when I was was coming back to work after maternity leave, my sister actually told me about a position. It was an Ombuds role in a school system. And when I read it, there were some things about the position that really resonated with me. And I thought, this is great. This is a person who's going to be connected to fairness and justice. So it was something that really appealed to me. And I thought by doing a role like that, I could make a difference. I had never heard of the term, but I thought I could do it. And that's how my career evolved. And at some point, I felt like I had really found my life's work. So I've done this in many organizations, probably about six or seven. I go to different organizations because every organization has a new challenge. But I really enjoy it because I do feel like every day people say, I want to do something where I can make a difference. But I really feel like that every day. Working with the individuals that I work with, I can help the organization. I can provide recommendations for something that's maybe not clearly seen because people aren't as comfortable coming forward. So it's always a little bit different as Ombuds we can be creative about how we develop training and education, how we work with teams, which is another thing that I think we can do really effectively. So, I mean, I think mediation is wonderful, but as an outside mediator, you're coming in not always with the benefit of the context of the organization

IE: Or the culture yeah.

DDW: Absolutely. So I'm hearing things every day, and I learn more about the organization I work in every day, and that benefits me and my work. So when I do facilitate a discussion or mediation, I have much more knowledge than an outside mediator would. I have much more knowledge than a consultant who comes in to facilitate a team retreat would have. So we do things like that too. And I think in a lot of ways, people feel like they're a part of us. They're not just coming in, and then they're leaving in a week. And I think for some teams and for some managers and for some leaders, that's beneficial because then we can do follow up. We're still functioning as an independent and impartial resource because we're not reporting in through what were existing hierarchies in the company.

IE: Well, thank you so much. I appreciate this.

DDW: I always love to get the word out about the Ombuds profession because I really do think we make a difference. And so I'm so happy that you were interested enough in what we were doing at Pinterest to reach out to me. So thank you so much.

IE: In this program of ‘We Can Find A Way’ my guest was Donna Douglas Williams from Pinterest. She described what led to the development of the Ombuds program at Pinterest and how workplaces shifted from fighting conflicts to another culture. She described issues of conflict at work and how Ombuds programs will evolve in the future. With that, I hope you enjoyed this episode and if you did please follow the podcast. Become a member, like it or share it. You can also like the excerpts I share in my YouTube channel or in the Instagram account of ‘We Can Find a Way’. As always, I would like to close by thanking musician Imre Hadi and artist Zeren Goktan who allowed me to use their music and cover picture in the podcast. Thank you and see you next month.