Justice can be trauma informed Guest: Gael Cochrane

IE: Hello and welcome back to the second episode of We Can Find A Way in 2024. My name is Idil Elveris. This is the sixth season in this podcast about conflict resolution. We Can Find A Way pioneers a culture change in handling conflict because conflict is everywhere. We Can Find A Way is also the only bilingual podcast that addresses conflict on an international scale. Today, I will talk to Gail Cochrane who works at Community Justice Scotland as a learning development and innovation lead. She will explain to us what it means to have a trauma informed practice; and why this is needed; and how someone working in the criminal justice system; or in any mediation, or having any public service position can realize that someone they talk to has trauma; and lastly, the relationship between trauma, criminal behavior and shame. Let's now go to the interview Gail and I conducted on the 16 February.

Thanks for agreeing to talk to me, Gail. Please tell me, what does having a trauma informed practice mean and why we need it?

GC: Following some principles... Safety, choice, collaboration, empowerment and trust. And there are various examples of embodying these principles and it's hard to do one without doing the other. And trauma informed practice is about putting those principles into practice. But for me, when I first learned about trauma informed practice, I thought, oh, well, that's just being human to other human beings and treating them as you would expect to be treated. And also being aware that a significant proportion of the population have experienced trauma. If we look at statistics, you know, I can give you some Scottish statistics if you like?

IE: Yes!

GC: One in four women will experience domestic abuse in their lifetime. One in five person will be seriously sexually assaulted. One in 13 children will have been mistreated, abused as a child, you know that possibly more. On top of that, you've got living in poverty and the stressor it puts on people. We've got, at the moment, the warfare and displacement of people. So, living there are significant things that can happen in people's life, whether it's a one off event or whether it's a series of events that can have an impact on them. It's just about being aware that most people will experience at least one single instant trauma in their life, if not more. And everybody responds differently. So some people carry on as normal, and other people, it will have an impact. And being trauma informed is about recognizing that that impact can happen in any point in someone's life. And so therefore, we should treat people according to the principles. We need it because I believe if we want to sort of promote sort of less aggressive, punitive kind of responses to people or adversarial responses to people, and I'm thinking also in schools, then, trauma informed practice is the best approach to work with people in any setting.

IE: It should be any job that serves the public. It can be someone who is at a reception even, not only just teachers or police officers or social workers, right?

CG: Yeah, absolutely. It's anyone who deals with people. So I think in Scotland, certainly our trauma framework kind of looks at occupations where and what levels of being trauma informed these people need to be. But to be anyone who deals with the public, you know, as you said, receptionists, people who work in shops, anyone who deals with other people on a regular basis, it's helpful for them to have a level of understanding of being trauma informed because ultimately it will make their job easier and it will make going to the reception, it will make things better for them as well.

So, we see instances where people might be late for an appointment, and instead of understanding why that might have happened, somebody might become quite adversarial, and it becomes an argument. And, the person who was late, gets upset or angry and responds in a particular way, and then it escalates. I think if that same instance was treated with understanding about why that person might have been late, what things might have made that happen, then it's far less likely to escalate. And I think that scenario probably happens every day somewhere. And particularly for people who have experienced significant trauma, timekeeping stressors to do with time, can be a big factor. Can be difficult to get out the house. It can be difficult to go places where you see authority figures. Perhaps, doctor surgeries are probably one of the big ones. But also, if somebody's looking for a job, it was about people being sanctioned for being late at job center appointments.

IE: Daniel Blake, the movie.

CG: Yes. I think Daniel Blake was a really sad but true example of people's experiences. Nobody really wanted to understand what was going on. They just wanted to sanction and really entrenched all the problems that were happening. I know people in real life that's happened to, and “I Daniel Blake” was based on real people's testimonies. There were high rates of suicide as a result of benefit sanctions. There's been some studies that demonstrate that if people were a bit more humane, even just had an understanding that I think sometimes people think it's being soft or that you're pandering to people when in fact you're just being humane, and it helps everybody in the long term.

IE: As if this is like a weakness. Right?

IE: I mean, what you're describing actually is..

GC: Absolutely.

IE: ..a deescalation tool in conflict resolution as well….How can someone in peer mediation, community mediation, or any mediation, or in criminal justice system victim offender mediation realize that someone has trauma? What are the signs?

GC: There are two things about how can we recognize trauma. Well, one thing is awareness that you might see nothing, you might not be aware of anything, and understanding sort of suppose the prevalence of trauma. That's why it's so important to keep that in your head, because you might not see anything. However, there might be some signs: people might look agitated. So I suppose trauma can impact in a number of different ways. But often people end up people being hyper vigilant or they have an increased heart rate. So you might see people tapping their feet; sort of fidgeting; maybe look a little bit sweat; a little bit warm looking that they're ready to run at any time. That's sort of hyper vigilance. You may see that. You may see someone who switches off, who appears to go into a sort of daydream, sort of disassociation. And that can be the other direct side of things, a sort of hyper vigilance, where people just really it's about protecting themselves and everything slows down. You may see those things and that might be a really strong indicator that somebody has experienced trauma.

You may see somebody who's fine, and then something small occurs, like maybe you've used a phrase or maybe somebody slammed a door or some examples I have from practice is about clicking pens. So there may be a noise or something that occurs that you immediately send somebody into that hyper vigilant state. They might become emotional or angry quite quickly for what, to you, seems like no apparent reason. So that emotional regulation or dysregulation may also be a sign that somebody has experienced trauma. In community mediation, when you're preparing the parties for mediation, it's really important to use all the trauma informed principles. And you may see, particularly if people are talking about something, what's happened which could be potentially be very difficult and bring back memories. You need to be aware but it is something that's a risk that we take when we engage in restorative practice. And I think most people who engage in it are obviously, it's voluntary, so most people who engage in it are aware that they're going to be talking about the impact of harm that should be embedded in your work, how you conduct yourself. And so that awareness, you may see it in the preparation. I would imagine from my experience you see it more. However, when parties get together, you're talking through their experiences and their impact. So you would expect that people will get emotional. Not always, but it's the possibility for preparing people as much as possible for when you get to a, face to face meeting, if that's what's going to happen, it's likely that emotions will be heightened because they're seeing each other face to face.

So it's really important that you work in twos, so one person can be responsible for the facilitation at one point, and another person can really watch and make sure everyone's okay and look out for some of those signs that we spoke about, like maybe people becoming distracted or dissociating. That's why it's also really important, people have space. So if they are feeling like they're becoming a little bit triggered, then they can have a break. It's about the relationship with the parties, so they trust you enough for you to recognize maybe when there are some symptoms or for them to say, “actually, I need a break” to know that that's going to happen. So I think there are a number of places in community mediation that you might see some trauma, some indicators that people might be becoming emotionally dysregulated.

IE: We Can Find A Way is sponsored by Koc Attorneys at Law the Istanbul and Antalya based boutique law firm. Founding partners of Koc Attorneys at Law are staunch believers of using dialogue and finding common ground to resolve conflicts. They're very happy to be supporting We Can Find A Way, in the hope that it will help advance the much needed discussion on deescalation and reduction of polarization in conflict situations within the legal practice as well as in the public discourse.

CG: I think in criminal justice, community justice, that all of that exists, but it's probably even more heightened people, whether they're victims or whether they're the people responsible, particularly, they are often in a situation which is out with their control. We know that having a sense of control is really important and particularly for people who've experienced trauma, regaining a sense of control is hugely powerful and important to them. So injustice..We know that a significant proportion of people who enter the justice system have experienced trauma and multiple in childhood and adverse childhood experiences and childhood trauma have a much more significant impact on developing brain and body than adult traumas do. So we have a situation where there are a lot of people who have had adverse experiences and then are in the justice system. I think most people who work in the justice system will have seen some of the signs we were talking about with the hyper vigilance. Depending on where you meet the person.

So some of being trauma informed is also about trying to think about your surroundings. It's not always possible to change your surroundings, but often small office where people feel enclosed, there's maybe no windows. They're used to situations where they're possibly not listened to. They are used to the adversarial kind of relationship. So all of these things increase people's likelihood of reacting and being emotionally dysregulated. So even from the initial process of justice; from people possibly being arrested; maybe being in a police station; maybe seeing their lawyer, their solicitor, then court; potentially prison or community justice. In all of these stages, there is real potential for people to be triggered, their trauma response to occur, often depending on the sex of the person. But we have a high male prison population, as you know.

IE: Yes

GC: So with men, often that emotional dysregulation will come out as anger, come out in the fight response. Not always, but that might be. And then that just leads to further problems for them and with women in the justice system, again, from the research, certainly in Scotland, there's a much more, much higher trauma in the female prison population than there is in the male, but they're still significant in the male as well. And often the behaviors will be less about fighting and anger. Women tend to harm themselves rather than others. So again, all these situations, from the buildings that we conduct our justice in, to the relationships with the people with power, can certainly have a massive impact on people's trauma response.

IE: Yes. Yet when you say these things, it's just like people think you're finding excuses for their criminal behavior. And there are many people with trauma who don't show that kind of criminal behavior. It's frustrating sometimes.

GC: I appreciate that. Yeah. And I think that's the important thing to say, that none of it's an excuse, but it's about an understanding. If we want to work with people and prevent further harm, then working in a trauma informed way is going to be more effective. We know punitive systems don't work, so taking a different approach. We are not putting people in a situation where they're triggered. Nothing is an excuse for people's behavior. Lots of people experience trauma and don't end up in the justice system.

IE: Correct.

GC: But if we want to understand why people do and how we can work with them, to encourage a more positive outcome for them and for their communities and for everyone, then taking a trauma informed approach is more likely to work than anything else. As possible, I think prisons are very difficult. As soon as somebody's incarcerated, I think it's very difficult. But it is possible, because being trauma informed, as I said at the beginning, is about being human and about relationships. So in a prison situation, if one prison officer, psychologist or anyone who works in the prison who has a regular contact with a prisoner, if they treat them with respect, they can build up trust.

IE: It immediately reminded me of a Netflix series, “A Nearly Normal Family”.

GC: Yeah. Such good….

IE: And, I just remembered corrections officer, on the day of the trial that bring-brought in what she wanted to eat, and in response, she hugged him. So it was very interesting. And it just immediately resonated with what you were saying here, actually. This humane connection, basically.

GC: Yeah. And it's the small things like that, bringing a book for someone; taking an interest, a real, genuine interest in them; treating them like another human, not like a criminal. So I think we can do very small things that can be very powerful. So even though in an ideal world, we'd have spaces that were psychologically informed, trauma informed, that were nice and comfortable and had windows, as well as everything the person would have a choice about. But ultimately, it's down to the individuals, it's down to people. And if we can start by ourselves, by being trauma informed, then everything can follow after that, because that's the most important thing. When I worked in the prison visitor center, we had a tiny little room, which was our office. We had a bigger community space but people would come in our office and take that as an opportunity to disclose trauma that happened to them. And people, even though it was very small, it didn't have any windows, people felt comfortable often there to talk to us. So I know from experience, it doesn't have to be a perfect environment, although that does help. So, yeah, it's really that, just that justice can be trauma informed. And I think that's where the education bit comes in. The trauma informed bit is so people recognize that it's going to make their life, their working lives easier if they treat people with respect, we can see that. But I think sometimes it's easier for people to blame and to see people who've committed defenses as other than them, because it's easier to deal with. If we think of them as other, as human beings, then it's quite scary to know that humans can do horrible things. I think ultimately, that's what it comes down to.

IE: And, lastly, what is the relationship between shame and trauma informed practice?

GC: Yeah, we can't do work and restorative justice or trauma work without looking at shame. I think because of the nature of it, people don't talk about it so I think because shame is, such a powerful emotion and something, when people feel it, they lose control or they feel like they're losing control and it can perpetuate further harm. So I suppose people who have been harmed, people who've experienced trauma, often experience shame because of what they've experienced. Shame, there's the sense that you're bad. It's not about feeling guilty or about. It's the sense that you yourself are bad. You're responsible for what has happened to you. So it is an entirely negative emotion. There's nothing positive about it. And, so for people who've experienced harm and trauma, who are experiencing shame, they may reenact what's happened to them. They may move from relationships that aren't great and continue in those unhealthy relationships. They may self sabotage. There's a really useful diagram and article by Nathanson about the Compass of Ahame and how people might respond in different ways to shame. So for people who've been harmed, they can often perpetuate behaviours that continue to harm them. And for people who, in the justice system, who've committed the harm, shame plays a massive part as well.

And there's a fantastic book which really opened my eyes to shame in the justice system, particularly in cases where people have committed really, really serious offences. It's by James Gilligan and it's called Violence: Reflections on our Deadliest Epidemic. He talks about how all the men in this high security prison that he works in America who've committed really horrific acts. Their acts actually display their shame. They are full of shame. They are continuing to behave in this way because of the shame, either hurting themselves or hurting other people, and then how the prison system actually perpetuates that the shame as well. I've got a quote from Gilligan to illustrate, “as I've yet to see an act of violence that was not provoked by the experience of being shamed and humiliated, disrespected and ridiculed” there's stigmatizing shame. And that's the kind of thing that stops people being able to emotionally regulate and think. And they continue to act in that either angry, angry and violent way, attacking other people or sometimes attacking themselves. And often within that, you'll have people using drugs and alcohol, denying what they've done because they don't want to face up to it. So denial and shame as well, it's a bit of a continuum. The more you realize what you've done is so shameful, the more you deny it to protect yourself. So we find denial a lot in the justice system. I'm sure you know that. And it is definitely linked to shame.

However, I believe that going through a restorative process or having trauma work, working with a professional, can change, move the shame back to a place of guilt. And if we can move it back to a place of guilt where they recognize that it's not about them as an individual, it's about acts that either happened to them or that they were responsible for, then people can recover, and that can be through the restorative justice process. I think allowing people to feel, to be accountable for what they've done, recognize that again, it was something that they've done. It wasn't themselves that's a problem. Then they can move away from shame. I think it's an opportunity in trauma work and in restorative work that people can move away from those feelings because they're not healthy. There's nothing positive about them. And, they continue to perpetuate a trauma response and a violent response in a lot of people.

IE: Thank you very much. Is there anything you would like to add?

GC: I could probably talk for ages more because… Yeah, I think the most important thing is for if people can to be trauma aware and to have that little bit more of an understanding about shame and the part that has to play…

IE: Gail, thank you very much.

Gail has been developing educational programs and providing training to a wide variety of participants for the past 23 years, she started off working in advocacy and then moved into the working in the field of risk taking behaviors, primarily with young people, youth workers, families, and other professionals working with them. It was when working with young people that Gail developed an interest in trauma informed practice. And then when managing a prison visitor center, this interest deepened.

She's the chair of the Scottish Restorative Justice Practitioners Network and is a member of the Scottish Restorative Justice Forum and the Research Network and the European Forum of Restorative Justice Trainers group and working Group on gender based violence. I hope you enjoyed this episode about trauma informed practice and why we need less punitive methods and more human ways to handle social problems in society. As Gail indicated, it is possible not to trigger people or even de-escalate, but when they meet people that represent power and authority figures as constantly strict and as people that reprimand this is harder to do.

So if you like this episode, please follow this podcast, its website that usually has a transcription of the episode. Like it; ahare it. And also please like the excerpts I share in my YouTube channel or in the Instagram account of We Can Find a Way. I'd like to close by thanking my sponsor, Koc Attorneys at Law; my marketing manager Julia Nelson; and musician Imre Hadi and artist Zeren Goktan, who allowed me to use their music and photograph in the podcast. Thank you and hope to meet you in the next episode.