"I wanted to humanize them" Guest: Jo Berry

Welcome back to another program of We Can Find a Way. This is a podcast about conflict resolution, and my name is Idil Elveris. I'm a mediator based in London and Istanbul. Since I moved to London more than three years ago, I had the time and opportunity to discover even more about conflict resolution, which I cover in this podcast in different episodes. This is a bilingual podcast, as you know, which may create some confusion for different listeners. But there will be more and more episodes in English. I now have put them even in a separate playlist, so please follow. Write a review. This helps the podcast to be found easily in search engines.

In this episode of We Can Find a Way, I am talking to Jo Berry, who is an amazingly inspiring speaker, and she works to resolve conflict around the world. Her story is pretty incredible. 16 years after her father, who was a Conservative Party MP, was killed by an IRA bomb, Joe met with the man responsible, whose name was Patrick Magee. I was so amazed by this story. In February, I went to the Grand Hotel in Brighton where this event took place, just to see how the hotel looked today and whether there was a commemoration, et cetera. In the hotel, I sat down, had a cup of coffee, and tried to imagine the atmosphere then. I couldn't, of course. But what is pretty amazing is she and Patrick Magee talked on many occasions about how their relationship has started after the Good Friday Agreement and their initial meeting after Magee was released from prison. It led them to speak over 300 occasions on a shared platform around the world. So I tried to ask Joe about the conditions that made such an encounter possible country wise, process wise, but also personally, because I felt she has already talked about other aspects on numerous occasions.

Joe also established a charity, Building Bridges for Peace, and advocates empathy and seeing the humanity in the other. She has given talks and workshops in many areas around the world, including Rwanda, Lebanon, India, South Korea, Palestine and Israel, as well as throughout the UK. She also developed workshops in schools with youth groups on topics of conflict transformation, storytelling, becoming positive change makers, and challenging violent extremism. So we can now move to our interview that took place on 25 April 2022.

Hello, Joe Berry, and thanks for being with me today.

-Hi, so great to be with you. Thank you.

What do you think are the conditions that made an encounter with you and Patrick Magee a possibility in this country?

-Well, great question. I met him after we had our peace process. He was in prison serving several life sentences. And then with the peace process, he was released. That was part of the peace process that all the political prisoners came out. I found out that when he came out of prison, he was committed to the peace process. So not everyone was. Some people still felt the battle was on. So I did my own risk assessment and decided that I'd be safe. I don't think he would have had me come to the prison because when he was in the prison, he was still motivated being part of the IRA and it wouldn't have been appropriate. It was appropriate when he came out of prison, left the IRA and then he was committed to repairing the past, he thought about sitting with former enemies and being part of a reconciliation process. So I did my own risk assessment and that seemed good enough. And then I was doing my own preparation. Normally, something like this, we call it restorative process, whatever. They would be someone there as a facilitator to take part in lots of preparation and they'd meet with both parties. It could be over a year. But there was no one at that time who wanted to take me on. Like I did try but no because I think it was too huge. It was too soon after the peace process. He was seen as a notorious terrorist. He almost killed the government, and no one wanted to touch it. And maybe they were worried for me, maybe they were worried for him. So I had to do my own work on this. I couldn't have met him if I hadn't already met some other people who were from the IRA. So it wasn't a conscious thing. I didn't decide, I have to do this and this and this. It was just what happened. And looking back at it, it was essential that I've met other men in the IRA first. Otherwise the step would have been too great.

How did you meet the other people in the IRA?

-It was part of a program I was on, reconciliation support for victims. And this was actually in the Republic of Ireland, a place called Glencree Reconciliation Center. And I was going there to get support and meeting other people being affected by the conflict. And one of the weekends was to meet ex prisoners. Now, a lot of people didn't want to go but I was like, “oh, yes, I really need to do this”. I remember being there that weekend. There were four men who were longtime IRA. And it wasn't that I needed to argue with them or talk to them about the conflict. I just wanted to feel them as human beings, humanize them. In a way they couldn't get rid of me because wherever they went, I was like “Can I come too?” and we went for walks in the hills. There was a group of us that stayed up all night which is sort of what happened there anyway. It was in the bantering, the joking, just being light that actually really helped me. But I did, after that weekend hit, feel quite a big sense of betrayal. And I think betrayal is a big part of this process. When we meet someone who could be an enemy or was an enemy or is part of a group that's killed a loved one, it's natural, I feel, to go through a betrayal. I'm still trying to understand exactly what betrayal is. But betrayal keeps us within our tribe, with our group, and stops us from building that bridge or rehumanizing those that we would have dehumanized or those that would be our enemy or other. And it's natural to feel betrayal. And the betrayal voice in me wanted me to stop and go: “no, this isn't okay, you mustn't do this work”. So I had to find a way to make peace with that part of me that was, I think, protecting me really that I called my betrayal.

Protecting you from feeling that they were really humans as well.

-Yeah, because what happens is we discover that they're really humans. I mean, that's massive. When I discovered that, I cried, because what's it all been about there? Why have we been fighting? Because actually we are all connected. They can be my brothers and sisters. And that was hard, but also vital and important. So if I hadn't felt that betrayal, then it may have been a huge obstacle when I first met Patrick Magee. For me, it's an emotional journey. It's not an intellectual journey. I mean, it's partly but it's much more emotional and I've had to grow through it. This isn't something that an academic exercise you can learn at university. This touches all my being, and therefore there are inner obstacles. And the betrayal was such a big one. And I could understand, anyone meeting that betrayal and then going, I'm not going to betray my loved one by meeting that person. Like, I'd really understand that. No situation is the same. This isn't the conditions for everyone. This is the conditions for me. Other people will be different. Yeah, I'll give an example.

I have a friend in Rwanda who lost 35 members of his family in genocide. And he wanted to meet the man who killed his mum and others. And he wanted to know from me a few things. And in the end, I said, if he feels this inside himself, he needs to do it. From a deep place of knowing that I am here for you, you do it. He went to meet him in prison because that was where he was. He wasn't coming out of prison. He had to tell all his family that. Be liable, his community, because it's a small village. And I didn't tell anyone. I had that luxury of not carrying everyone with me. He had to. And then when he got there, he actually found out details of where his loved ones were buried, and that's what he needed to know. That's a very different situation. This is why there are no rules in this game, in this way of reconciling because it's quite new. There is people who can support us in the process. And that's one thing that I do. I support other people in the process. It has to come from that urge, that deep passion inside ourselves, and we have to find our way. There may not be a peace process. Maybe they're in prison. Maybe we have to meet a proxy, like someone who represents that group because it was a suicide bomber. Or maybe we don't know who killed our loved ones. There's so many variants in this and therefore there is not one right way.

So every country has to fight their own demons, I guess. You said you have walked alone. It was your decision. So what does the British government or the Conservative Party that your father was a member of think about your initiative?

-I don't know. I mean, we're talking about now, 21 years ago. At that time, certainly I don't think they've been very supportive. I did get some letters from one MP who was very angry. It's fine, it's understandable. But things have changed since then. I'm not in touch with people so that I would know but I certainly haven't done this to be liked. And I've had death threats and angry people and I've been accused of all sorts of things, and that's fine. I'm never going to argue with anyone about this. I understand for a lot of people, this is a step too far, and that's fine. I'm just thinking, okay, we can't change the past, how can we change the future? I'm doing my own experiment because of the impact of the work that I do and what I've done. I feel it's worked, but I'm not ever going to persuade anyone else. That's not who I am.

When I listen to your programs with Magge via Zoom or other YouTube programs, you often mentioned being scared of appearing with him, meeting him, your heart beating, et cetera. Yet you have been able to overcome it and have done it over the past, hundreds of times. So how did you fight your own fear? How was this possible?

-I mean, the fear is not so much there anymore. Occasionally but it was certainly there the first time. I was terrified. I thought it was a one off meeting. It never occurred to me that we were going to carry on and we'd be in touch 21 years later. So I think at the time, I was already finding a way to deal with my emotions. So I was acknowledging my emotions and recognizing but also a stronger voice going: “I've got this, I need to do this” despite it being difficult. How would I be feeling? Just happy about this. This is huge. This is a scary thing to do, but I need to do it for my own healing. And so that inner sense of I need to do this was stronger than the emotion. Otherwise I wouldn't be able to do it. So I was giving myself support and I do that all the time. I have conversations, I have like a very vivid internal world where I'm aware of my emotions and my thoughts. I'm acknowledging them and listening to myself and that's really important. When I met Patrick for the first time, I was completely present with him which enabled him to then say that he was disarmed by my empathy. And the way I did that was that I was conscious of everything that was happening inside myself. That's the self awareness that was there. I had some very unusual thoughts, I was being with them and I was noticing my emotions and I kept it up for three hours and then I couldn't do it anymore. So that's when I left. So I acknowledged my emotions, even just saying to myself “I'm being really scared” and then telling myself that “I've got this, I am safe, I am okay”. It's really helpful, just like someone might say to you or you're scared and that's what helps calm you down. I give myself those messages and also I've learnt about positive affirming messages. So when I'm out of my depth, which I can be, I tell myself “I got this Joe, you know, I'm doing well”. So I give myself those strokes, positive messages which really help. Or what do I need right now is a really important question I ask myself in order to feel better. And then that gives myself the power. And quite often, we give our power away and we get other people to tell us what we need. But I'm all about we know what we need. So I asked myself I need to ring a friend and just have a safe space. Maybe I need to go for a walk in nature. Nature is very important to me.

Did you tell him that “we have met now like three hours, it's getting too much, I need to go”. Or I guess if you put it in a much more smoother and nicer way, “I'm just feeling that the internal feelings are coming up and boiling”.. sometimes there is a danger that you might say something that you don't want to say.

-No, I think in fact I was late, I was meant to be somewhere else. So I think I just said “thank you, I need to go”. And that's when he said to me he was really sorry he killed my dad. And I didn't need an apology. To me it's not about an apology. But that was when I really knew that he was seeing my dad as a human being. And he demonized my dad. That's how he could plant a bomb, that's how people can kill. They don't see people as human beings, they've demonized them. But he's now rehumanizing my dad. So that did mean a lot to me.

I think he also said that he could sit down and have a cup of tea with him?

-Yes, but instead they were representing different sides and they weren't listening to each other and that's the nature of conflict.

Do you sometimes think what your father would have thought about this?

-I do get asked. I'm sure he would understand because he always wanted to understand me, because I was always a little bit different. For him, politics was a way to create change. And he said to me, I want to create peace by my politics. Now that was never my way of creating peace because I've never voted for his party but I accept that was what he wanted to do. And so he'd understand this is my way now, creating peace.

What would your advice or recommendation be to the people of Turkey? We had a peace process, but it failed. There will be another one, probably, because there has to be at some point if we want to resolve this issue.

-So what was the main reason it failed, do you think?

We don't really know enough about it. Different expectations, not inclusion of society, maybe preparing the society, the people, especially after such a conflict in longevity, to make compromises, et cetera.

-Yeah, well, the big one I heard was not involving the people, not preparing them. I was actually with a group in Switzerland and at a conference and there was a group there from Turkey that came from Kurds and non-Kurds, and they were working together, young people, and some of them had inherited a sense of trauma and some of them experienced it. The way to move on is to create safe spaces, I believe, to share stories and to hear each other and to humanize each other, on a grassroots level. When there's been so much trauma and suffering, it takes a long time to heal, so there needs to be individual work to heal the trauma. And that's massive. And even in Northern Ireland, where there's been a lot of resources, there's still a lot of trauma that's never been addressed. And when a trauma is not healed, I believe, it passes down to the next generation and then the next generation. It takes a long time to heal. So first of all, to address the personal trauma and then to create safe spaces where people can come and share their stories, where people can come and listen. Because I think rehumanizing happens when we hear someone's story and they're turning it from “I went through this, this member of my family went through this and I felt this”, and it is very real, from the heart. And then that makes connections and builds empathy and then even if people have been on opposing sides, they can go: “you know, I've experienced this” and so there's that, immediately. We are human and there's a connection. That's a very powerful way. And there are many different ways of creating safe spaces for storytelling. There are people doing programs and now I think it's been developed around the world. I've seen it work, I've really seen it work where former enemies have come together and then made that connection. Passed the healing is to see each other as human beings again. Has to be done in a very safe way. There'll be many different needs on all the different positions and sides. You know, ,t's really hard. What is Justice? Memorial Days, compensation… There's so many issues. They all need to be addressed in the peace process. You know, peace process is also about how you move on, taking into account the needs. So the peace process can be a massive way of listening to everyone and then collating that information so people feel heard and listened to and somehow they're supported. I'm not an expert on peace process, but I imagine those that work are ones that have done a lot of listening. They're not just experts coming in to create a peace process that day, but they've got an infrastructure on how we move on with everyone. The longer the conflict, the harder the longer its going to take to heal, obviously. And then the individual trauma work for people, not just straight counseling. I don't think that does it. Maybe for some people, but for more people need a deeper work because trauma is stored in the body. There's a lot of work to do to heal, which is why we have to stop killing each other, because when we do, it takes a second to kill someone. But the legacy, what it leads, take generations to heal. That's very idealistic. But that's the only way to address this, is to get to the root of why it happens and change it, which is what my work is about. But this is a long term vision. I'm not going to see it in my lifetime. Obviously, things aren't great at the moment.

Yeah. Which brings us to the last question. I guess, if I understand all you're saying correctly, you're working rather not with governments or states, but you believe your politics, if I may, is more about people, humans, talking to each other. So as the last question, how do you think the people of Ukraine and Russia can make peace at some point?

-First of all, my question is, could this have been avoided? And I feel that's a shared responsibility. Were there red flags? Were there things that if there be interventions, could we have actually stopped what's happening now happening? And I think there are lessons to be learned. I would love to work with governments. It's just that they aren't inviting me because it's not just me. But I think there are many people who are mediators, who are peace builders who understand a lot about conflict and why it happens. Their type of thinking is more in the way the politicians think. I think we'd have a much safer, more peaceful world, but they're not the ones in charge because I think a lot of people could have predicted this and we have to separate the person from their actions. At the moment, there's a lot of demonization on Putin, which is understandable. When we see what's happening in Ukraine with social media, we can actually be speaking to people as the bombs are landing on them. I mean, it's never has that happened so much right now. And then the feelings are of outrage and, understandable and pain. And then we want to blame someone and make them less than human, and Putin's the person but I don't think demonization works. Yes, behavior is not okay. It's awful. But what are his needs? What happened?

I've decided that shame is a big thing of what happens in the world. And when shame gets triggered, people do all sorts of different things, and they lose the dignity. And so any solution has got to not put Putin more in a corner where he is just fighting more and more. We have to work with people. I'm not a negotiator on the world scale, but I would think that it would need very skilled people to come in and give even Putin a safe place to share how he feels and what he needs. Is that possible? I don't know. Now I mean, there's many Ukrainians that have family in Russia, Russian in Ukraine. They're all connected. And we've also had that in Europe as well, in the Balkans of families and Rwanda families and neighbors like this. Also in Northern Ireland to a certain extent as well. That healing. First of all, help for the trauma, for the children being traumatized. I mean, it's huge. I don't think we can expect anyone to be part of reconciliation work when they're still in trauma. First of all, get everyone into a space where they feel safe again, because I think what happens in battle, in war, is that they're not safe. They lose it inside themselves. So we have to all feel safe, physically, emotionally, even spiritually. I am safe. And then from there, I'm sure there'll be many programs to address the different needs of the victims, survivors. About our bodies, practical needs like that, it's just so massive. I can't even begin to look at what is going to involve because we're still in it. But I certainly know that I'm dedicated to doing what I can if it's appropriate. We need the world to stand with the people who have been affected in Ukraine and Russia and stand together in solidarity and support the healing. It's a huge job. Despite all of the difficult things we talked about, I'm a great believer in the resilience, in the humanity of people in the world that we have. Just as we can do dreadful things to each other, we can also do amazing things to each other. And every time we're kind, every time we reach out to someone to say “how are you? I care” we're making a difference. It doesn't have to be on the big stage. It can be in our community to take care of someone and to listen, to witness. And I have great faith that we can create a more useful, just peaceful future because of the power, of love and connection.

Thank you very much for this program. Jo told me about the conditions that made an encounter with Patrick Magee possible and mentioned things like the then existing peace process, risk assessment, humanisation and empathy. She also mentioned the sense of betrayal she felt inside and how she coped with it. She described all this as a personal journey, so she did not have a recipe for anyone who wanted to engage in something like this. We also discussed how other conflicts in the world, like in Turkey or Ukraine, can be resolved. And she mentioned storytelling and she underlined the importance of safe spaces and trauma work. She also talked about overcoming shame.

So what strikes me after all these episodes involving these amazing speakers, is that in the UK, there is the presence of so many excellent mediators and peacemakers who understand what conflict is about and what is needed for healing and then negotiating, et cetera. Yet the government is not tapping on all of this experience. It really beats me.

So I hope you enjoyed the program. I will upload a picture of Jo in the Instagram account if We can find a way. I will also share some excerpts from the episode in Instagram stories. As always, I would like to close by thanking musician Imre Hadi and artist Zeren Göktan, who allowed me to use their materials in the podcast. Thank you, and see you in the next program.